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AI am a doctor and in my field I get so many complaints about doctors and hospitals overcharging despite healthcare costs being the lowest in the world. And also healthcare in India is quick, safe and efficient barring a few exceptions.
However I had engaged one lawyer to file a vakalatnama. He charged 25000 ( half of 50000 total fees). The case never even came to the judge as the judge retired and I quit from government service hece the case wasn’t even required.
Normally if I plan a surgery and it doesn’t happen I refund the money back to the patient. The lawyer said not a chance.
Also we had filed a case in supreme court regarding a common issue faced by doctors. One senior counsel took 7 lakh as fees. When the case came for hearing the judge didn’t even let him to speak. The judge simply said take your representation elsewhere.
We didn’t get any refund from senior counsel or court fees. This will never be tolerated by any patient in the hospital.
Just because you have monopoly over judicial process how is it fair you can charge whatever you want ?
Even transplant surgeons who give a new life to the patient don’t charge what some senior counsels charge.
Of course I understand there are a lot of poor lawyers who don’t get cases. Now with mushrooming of medical colleges it’s the same situation for doctors in south.
P.S. please don’t file contempt charges against me. Can’t afford lawyer fees. Mods delete my post if it offends your august profession in anyway.
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CI agree with you 100%. People in the past used to be ethical nowadays it’s all about money. Also there is nothing to regulate a doctor or a lawyer so we as common man are screwed by both. That said I hope some humanity is restored in everything these two classes do.
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IBoth the professions i.e. doctors and advocates (not lawyers) are self regulated by AIMA and BCI. Self regulation has always been about ensuring quality and to reducing malpractice. As much as I agree that the legal fees have been exorbitant of late, it’s difficult to regulate the price. It’s a service, and people decide whose service they want and how much are they willing to pay for it. It’s same as dining options, which starts from pain puri and goes all the way to Michelin star fine dining. They both have their reasons to exist, and people decide what they want and can have. Btw I’m a lawyer (not an advocate).
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UMedstudent here. Indians don’t like to spend on healthcare, and we have a free loading mentality. So we expect healthcare for free in the first place, even paying 300 for a consultation feels expensive to them. Its a bad mentality and ofcourse the public pays for it in the long run.
Now paying a lawyer? We are finding loopholes in law that were badly created in the first place, to personally benefit us, if I can spend 2 lacs to save 15, I would.Why not do the same for health? Because we do not care about health in this nation, and its very visible.
Smart nations either use a good functional insurance system (Middle East) or they invest good in their healthcare system itself (Europe, Australia). Benefits everyone.
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KDon’t be fking naive, it’s not about 300 consulting fees, most of the doctor’s scribe shit on prescription so that we made to buy shit medicines manufactured by low end pharmaceutical manufacturer. If you think medical private sector is not pimping poor people, then you are just blind as a bat.
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UPimping poor people? Its just like what I said, you guys expect it for free.
You have an issue with pharmaceuticals you can take it up with them, we have as much to do with them as with the engineers who design the machines we use.
As for the “shit pharmaceuticals”, hard to make good quality drugs when public isn’t willing to pay for it. Quality has a price that south east asians do not want to pay for. We have good drugs as well that cost a lot more. They do not get prescribed because its expensive and then the patient won’t be compliant with medication.
What is your solution to it? Ask doctors to pay from their own peanuts paycheck?
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RThe solution is don’t prescribe medicines just for the sake of prescribing.
I’ve a lot of times got prescribed useless medicines. A lot of time painkillers are added into the prescriptions even though the patient is not complaining about pain. Also there’s an excessive dosage. 1 dolo is enough for mild pain yet they prescribe it as though it’s poppins I’m eating.
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UThat isn’t a solution. If you knew treatment guidelines you would know, feel free to pick up a medicine book and read the guidelines there. Painkiller is a layman term, the drug has multiple functions, and its for the other functions the drug gets prescribed at times. My brother got pantoprazole for pneumonia. Makes no sense, did not make sense to me either back then, but turns out the antibiotics he got increases acidity, thus Pantop.
Antibiotics similarly are prescribed for a longer duration for both effective killing and to prevent drug resistance. Just because you feel better with 2 days of antibiotic doesn’t mean the doctor is looting you by asking you to take it for 7 days. If people understood how serious this drug resistance problem is going to be, antibiotics would start getting tightly controlled the same way we do with narcotics. They already tightly control it in developed nations due to this.Also, the problem you described isn’t even one among the multitudes of major problems that we face in healthcare, if this is the breadth of your healthcare problem then respectfully don’t complaint anymore.
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RI’ve been healthy for most of my life and rarely fall sick. Even when I do fall sick. I don’t go for any kind of medication. I let my body naturally heal itself unless of course it’s something serious. I do consult the doctor to understand the kind of disease I’m suffering from and how serious it is and buy their medication but I don’t take the medication unless I feel I absolutely have to and it worked for me so far.
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SPoor people can’t even afford to get treated in a private hospital (the prices are honestly ridiculous) so your point of pimping them doesn’t stand, but you have to understand the point that private healthcare in India is by far one of the cheapest (even after adjusting for Purchasing power parity), but MOST people, collectively as a society are quick to judge doctors as money scavengers even if they don’t know the rationale behind the medications (like you) but when a lawyer with similar experience would charge insane money too (which they deserve), you don’t see society as a whole branding them as lootera.
And the people most affected as the junior most ones, both Junior doctors and lawyers would earn peanuts compared to experienced ones, but the people still collectively hate Junior doctors more than any other professionals ; not even considering the fact that even the Junior most specialist doctor has dedicated atleast 9-10 yrs to study.
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SAnd patients deserve to know the reason why certain drugs are prescribed to them and the side effects of the drugs prescribed to them, just switch the doctor if you don’t get informed of what you deserve to know! Scheduling a meeting with a specialist in India (as a middle class person) is MULTIPLE times easier even compared to developed countries.
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S>So we expect healthcare for free in the first place
>Because we do not care about health in this nation,
>Smart nations either use a good functional insurance system (Middle East) or they invest good in their healthcare system itself (Europe, Australia).
For the amount of taxes we pay, expecting the state to take care of basic necessities like healthcare isn’t too much to ask. The examples you give don’t charge their citizens for healthcare either. It’s not that Indians don’t care about their health – for most of the population it’s entire unaffordable or they can’t take time off from making ends meet. And in many ways it’s a lost effort, the very air we breath is toxic in this country.
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UThe way you doctors charges fees, and delays discharge, treatment, putting in unnecessary diagnostics tests and totally disregard the patients well being, financial and emotional capacity.
I would say, you sort of got off easy.-
RI don’t think you are educated enough to question the treatment and diagnostic protocols of a Doctor. If you know so much and know what tests to do and why then why and what treatments to give then don’t go to a Doctor do your own treatments.
If you have really faced something then consult a lawyer or police etc and follow proper procedure under law.
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PA doctor here as well. Indian mentality- doctors are a disguise of god, and how can god charge money. Providing healthcare is a service to mankind.
No one loses their shit when anyone earns, be it businessmen, or lawyers or anyone else. Once a doctor starts to earn, they all lose go like, he must be a bad doctor who does tests and treatments which are not required.
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GI have never, in my 29 years living in this country, ever seen someone have a problem with a doctor earning money.
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AThe problem isn’t with earning. Problem is with doctors spending so little time with patients. Least bothered to explain anything. Patients are expected to just pay up and follow the diktat without questioning anything.
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SIt takes years for a lawyer to get recognition
Which means years of hustle with less pay, working everyday, readings, being good with the law and the precedents. When a young lawyer sees his non lawyer friends are buying a car or whatever and the young chap is nowhere close to being regarded as successful the hustle never stops.
Thus, years of mastery in one niche and then comes a grand jackpot.-
RDoctors are no different tbh. Do you know how long it takes to become one? And then it takes years to gain recognition just like you mentioned for lawyers.
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SI understand brother. Speciality surgeons have hefty fee too. I personally know 4 surgeons who charge somewhat 3K-4.5K per consultation.
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RSure, but that isn’t the point of this post.
OP is saying doctors are looked at with contempt for such high fees while lawyers get a free hand.
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RAnd that is exactly OP’s point of frustration.
Why are doctors expected to shoulder such a higher unnecessary burden when no other profession is expected to?
Shouldn’t judicial work be god’s work too? After all, what’s right and what’s wrong and fighting for it is the higher moral work which we associate religion with.
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SIn our field the judge is seen as a god. And most of the time the god is corrupt.
I respect doctors a lot-
RIt’s not about corruption. It’s about lawyers not following basic etiquette.
As mentioned by the OP, if his cases didn’t go to court, the lawyer should be expected to return their fees. Why don’t they?
Almost every other professional or business would be expected to return payment if services are not provided. Why don’t lawyers do so?
I don’t even mind the high fees. I expect better lawyers to charge more, just like I expect better doctors to charge more. I just want some accountability, like OP.
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BThere’s a reason why legal counsel is the last resort in India, everyone knows they’ll get fucked dry out of their money. Good lawyers exist, but majority who take law are ego boosted low IQ stupids, who take law just to have an ounce of power in their life and act like gundas. Atleast actual gundas resolve any matter in the stipulated time.
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BWhen you engage a lawyer and pay a fee, you’re not just paying for the filing of a vakalatnama. Filing that document legally binds the lawyer to your case it’s a professional commitment that creates an obligation to appear on your behalf and represent you, come what may. Even before we set foot in court, there’s background work: reading the brief, researching case law, planning arguments, anticipating the other side’s moves, and sometimes coordinating with co-counsels or clients. That’s effort and time already spent whether the matter proceeds or not. So if the case didn’t move forward because you quit your job or the judge retired, that’s not on us. Just like if a patient cancels a surgery after you’ve booked the OT, prepped the team, and blocked your calendar, you don’t refund them either you charge for preparation and loss of opportunity.
And about that 7-lakh senior counsel fee. You didn’t pay that just to hear him talk in court. You paid for his name, reputation, and the sheer weight his presence carries in that courtroom even if the judge chose to shut it down. You paid for decades of expertise, not five minutes of speaking time. No one twisted your arm to hire him; you had choices. You chose the top shelf, now don’t act shocked by the price tag.
As for this idea that lawyers have a monopoly on justice nonsense. The law is open to all. If you think we’re so overpriced, go argue your own matter. File your own petition, cross-examine your own witnesses. But you won’t because you know the risk, the complexity, and the stakes. That’s why you call us. Same as why patients don’t self-medicate brain surgery.
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RThis is the right answer. A lawyer’s work starts way before the case reaches court. No lawyer sits in court & studies the case or prepares his/her arguments. Whether the case goes to court or not is immaterial. The arguing before a judge is just the end result. No judge will tolerate an unprepared lawyer. OP’s qualified understanding / logic is not uncommon, especially for people in his profession. There are 4 in my family. All have the IQ of a rat, yet think they’re Elon Musk.
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AThank you for the answer. I can accept the first part. But the senior lawyer -his presence mattered not at all as the judge shut him down even before he could speak anything. So why 7 lakhs when judge can’t even bother to listen to him ?
Also the reason we don’t argue our own matter is because the judicial system is so opaque that cases can get cancelled anytime. If the matter comes for hearing and is posted on the case list, the judge can simply cancel it and go. No consequence to him. But I have to apply leave in my office. I was called as an expert witnesses in Mlc case- the judge postponed it thrice while I had to cancel all my cases /Opd etc for that day. who is going to compensate me for all the lost earning ?
Also in the first case (25000 rupees matter) the opposite party had filed against the government. He had included me and another doctor. That doctors brother was assistant to some hot shot lawyer. He alleged that govt lawyer will just pay some money to the clerk and make sure the case never comes to light. The opposite party is a doctor who just made a fool of himself by trusting the judicial process.
So kindly understand we aren’t coming to you for your expertise. We come because you can deal with all the shenanigans and headaches that come with cancelled cases and delays. As it’s a routine part of our work. While I have to apply for leave and goto another city to argue in front of the court which can simply cancel the hearing on that day on whim without providing us any reason or refund of court fees.
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AAlong with that some lawyers will charge a % fee for settlement/claims/alimony as a deal which they are not allowed to do. In so many family dispute cases the lawyers from both sides collude to extend the case as long as possible so they can keep getting paid per appearance. Imagine there are huge bundles of currency notes burning in your store and all you get is a transfer and paid vacation. Whatever they say, the process of law is opaque.
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RDoctor here. My advice to general public if you want free healthcare go to a government hospital, if you have problem with the government services complain to the government. A doctor is just an employee doing is job not a God.
If you want to go to a private doctor then you have to pay because the thing is no one gives us discount when they get to know we are doctors instead they overcharge us. We also have to earn to feed our family and need a high quality of living because we worked so hard to get here, in Every developed country Doctors are top 1% earners in their economy and live a luxury comfortable life, considering everything is ethical and under law. I have no sympathy for anyone doing work against the law in any field even a shopkeeper.
Most importantly- Doctors are not God, they are just doing their job like any other person so treat them like a service providers not Gods. If you have any problem change your doctor, go somewhere else or take a legal route under law. Don’t take things in your hand especially when you think you know better than Doctors. Stay under law.
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PIts not doctors. Its the hospitals that we have issues with, which prioritize profits by offerring packages for treatment of an illness.
Being forced to buy expensive variants of common medicines from the inhouse pharmacy, overcharging and multicharging for expendable equipments, and so on.
Want an antacid? Pepcia-D or Rabekind for 100 bucks wont do, here’s my prescription for one that costs >200 bucks, which is only available in the hospital’s pharmacy, which gives no discount. I was once forced to buy a sterile bandage pack for 450 bucks from the inhouse pharmacy which is available for about 50 bucks in my local pharmacy.IMHO, court lawyers (torts and the like who are found waiting for clients near courts) are the primary reason why lawyers have a bad reputation. They are in cahoots with the judge, typists, peons, and even the chaiwallah. The effing babu culture doesn’t help either. Wanna notarize some documents? Here, get it typed at this shop, and feed me an overpriced chai while we wait for it. Then grease the peons palms to get our number forwarded, and then the judge will ofcourse need some greasing as well.
Your anger is real, but reasoning is just a bit off the target.
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FPeople neogtiate will lawyers too. Many don’t pay fee on time and sometimes we have to write off fee aswell. The top 10% have the privledge to be paid the entire fee in advance and also be paid in lakhs.
Yes, there are dishonest lawyers but that is the case with every single profession. Hospitals forcing patients to stay overnight in order to increase their bills is kind of the same thing, you might say the doctor is not a part of it but in fact they are a part of the system because they order the patient to stay.
Becoming a senior advocate that too who practices in the supreme court is insanely difficult. That is atleast 20 years of being in the profession and having to fulfill so much criteria in order to become one. The senior is comparable to a super specialist doctor in a very expensive private hospital. You might not really need him but you still go to him for your own peace of mind!
Being returned your money when a surgery is not performed is not at all comparable to a lawyer who came to the court with all the paperwork and wasn’t allowed to speak before a judge, he still came and stood there and his resources are being utilised whereas a surgery that didn’t take place means no hospital resources like scheduling a surgeon, bringing in instruments etc were used.
I understand doctors are questioned about the fee but lawyers are too. Sit in a courtroom and see how many people complain when a senior lawyer comes in argues, leaves and charges 3-4 lakhs. The problem with the human mind is we are very quick to criticise the other professions because we only understand the nuances of our own. We all struggle, whether a doctor, a lawyer or any other.
I am a lawyer and let me tell you we can go to the correct court, with the best drafted case ever and the judge simple doesn’t let us argue and gives a judgement in favour of the opposite party. Most of us try our best but there can never be a predictable outcome just like in a surgery. You can perform the most cookie cutter textbook surgery and still have a patient with complications.
Nobody has a monopoly over the judicial process not even the judges, there are all kind of problems like corruption and political pressure. Your idea of a new life is skewed too. People who are about to go to jail for years and somehow manage to get aquitted have a sense of a new life too. It saves them and their family from societal shame, retains them an earning member and what not. Lastly, your knowledge of what a contempt charge is and how it applies to you is incorrect.
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UNowadays everyone is looking to screw you for money, many have become too greedy. In case of lawyers you can’t do much since they know how to manipulate laws & court is their playground.
Dr also overcharge, some have consultation fees of 25-40k for 4-5mins, suggest 10x costly medicines, private hospitals charging 20 times more for smallest thing just bcz of convenience & hygiene. Then there are brokers who charge too much for doing nothing, schools another money monger, charging lacs for even primary schooling & teachers are almost illiterate. -
EWhen OP has asked a lawyer to respond, why are non lawyers responding on our behalf?
Law is a 6 or 5 year educational endeavour. We have spent years researching, studying and improving our craft. That one meeting the lawyer takes with a client has to carved out of a very tight schedule especially with a reputable lawyer. That time is precious and they charge for it to make sure the client is not there to waste their time.
As someone else mentioned just going to court to argue one matter is not as simple as wake up in the morning, go to court and vomit whatever your brain thinks. It takes tedious research of case laws, strategy and most importantly a strong understanding of the law which takes years to develop.
A lawyer just doesn’t have themselves to pay but also a clerk who helps the office and a few juniors (who get paid peanuts in comparison to the fee).
If OP or anyone wants to get cheap services they can go to a cheaper lawyer but the quality and ability of the lawyer will be relevant to their fees exactly how the competency of the doctor reduces at free or government hospitals. There are many lawyers who also do pro bono work for poor people who cannot afford the services but are in need of quality legal services.
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AMy issue isn’t your fees. It’s more about why the public doesn’t bash you guys as much as they bash doctors.
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PSimply put, your line of work has far reaching consequences in comparison to ours.
If a lawyer in the court fucks up, then there still might be a chance to amend his mistakes through revisions and appeals.
However, if a doctor fucks up, there just might not be any repreival from the same.
Don’t take it the wrong way, both law and medicine are considered to be noble professions but one of them comes with more complicated caveats.
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RThe fuck are you talking about? 9/10 of my clients crib and bargain when it comes to fees as if my efforts aren’t worth a dime. Take your high horse elsewhere.
>He charged 25000 ( half of 50000 total fees). The case never even came to the judge as the judge retired and I quit from government service hece the case wasn’t even required.
You got scammed.
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A1) I realise about prep work hence I’m okay with spending 25,000.
2) sometimes anaesthetist will cancel a surgery case saying the patients BP is too high or something. That time we have to refund the money back to the patient or use that money for the next schedule. I honestly doubt this senior lawyer will use this 7 lakhs for next hearing
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PWe had a case filed against us in a different state a few years back. We appointed a lawyer through a family friend as we didn’t know anyone over there. The lawyer assured us of prompt service . Whenever we asked him about the fees he would be like ” arrey koi nahi aage dekh lenge, ghar ki baat hai ” n all that crap. For almost 15 months he kept giving us updates on the case but never shared any docs. Finally frustrated we asked someone from mumbai to get us an update. And surprise surprise, out of 4 hearings our lawyer never attended any of the hearings. 0 . The judge had almost ruled the case exparte but we were able to get there at the last min. Finally we managed to get an out of court settlement with the other party at about 25% of his claim . And the damn audacity of the lawyer that his fees is 10% of the initial claim amount ! What a shit show !
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SMy sister is a doctor and i see how relatives hound her for a free consult or send random whatsapp messages. While a lawyer even if he is a relative does nothing for free.
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APeople crib about lawyers fee all the time. You would be surprised how often people dont pay fee on time and the challenges it brings. There are costs to running an office as a doctor you can understand that way better there are clerks juniors and other associates that one must pay regularly there are rent and utilities and I havent even begun about filing and preparatory costs involved with a case. If your case is urgent, it will cost you as I have to reschedule my week to accommodate something urgent and hence the fee. If its not urgent but requires a lot of applications to be drafted there is fees. If there is a senior engaged, we have to brief him too, so theres fees for briefing as well as the fee you pay to a senior counsel. Books and research portals are expensive and so is the time that is being put into the matter. Every case is unique and brings a question of law which takes time and experience to brong forth and argue for which you pay the advocate for his experience and expertise. A senior counsel argues the matter and presents the case to the judge better than any normal advocate would. He has some face value in front of the judge and engages the judge with a force that may get the case dismissed if argued by a junior. Seniors are worth the money they charge, but you are entiled to services of an advocate if a senior is not in your budget. This is no justification of costs, but there are various factors that you must account while billing a case. Even if the senior argued for 10 seconds, as the judge didnt see merit in his case, he still prepared for it. No lawyer will charge you something extra if the hearing took 2-3 hours or even the entire day so essentially thirty seconds or the whole day doesnt matter as it is the discretion of the judge. You are charged for the preparation as we dont control the outcome or the judge which is different than a surgery, where your knowledge expertise and experience keeps you in control. On the contrary, lawyers have little to no control over the matter and its an ever changing situation dependant on the judge the opposition and changing circumstances.
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UYeah do work extensively before it reaches court . But the fee has turned into ransom everything needs to be competitive unfortunately there is no such rate card . And lawyers keep milch . It’s high time they are more transparent in their fees . And feel there is a deliberate reason why these coterie of black coats won’t make it open and compete as they need the parallel justice system to operate run by goons & Politicians. Yes I do crib about lawyers atrocious fees . And helpless
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SThe fees goes towards research reading the file etc. unlike a doctor, the lawyers have to prepare and spend time before they go to court. Things like spending time drafting the plaint etc. So what you essentially are paying is towards the labour costs. Doctors expense are on the day of the surgery the consumables and his fees for performing the surgery.
So it’s not a fair comparison of the professions.
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SI had a patient who came to me 3 months ago with knee pain. Diagnosed as ligament strain and Treated it, became fine and then she did some over activity and the pain recurred. Diagnosed as early arthritis and provided the treatment..
She had the audacity to ask me if she needs to pay consultation.
I said yes, why the doubt?
Because apparently it’s the same knee. So one consultation of one part of the body = lifelong free consultation ??!! -
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BLawyers charge 7 lakhs to not speak in court and still keep the money. If doctors did that, we’d call it malpractice. When surgeons save lives, they get questioned. When lawyers miss court, they get paid.
**Honestly, the only transplant lawyers know is moving your cash into their account.**
Surgeons save lives. Lawyers save… invoices (for reimbursement).
At this point, I’m convinced ‘vakalatnama’ is Sanskrit for ‘wallet evacuation’.
And don’t even get me started on senior counsels. They charge fees that make heart surgeons flatline.😅
No court appearance? Still billed. Didn’t speak? That’s silence tax. Judge ignored you? That’s emotional damage surcharge.😂Meanwhile, doctors give life, cure diseases, pull all-nighters, and are expected to apologize for charging anything more than cab fare and a biscuit.
So thank you, doc — for the laughs, the honesty, and most importantly, **for not billing us per heartbeat!** 😄
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